Linda,

These union members have been so coddled that they will find it near impossible to understand Christie's logic. They have become so "entitled" that everything they do receive is always insufficient. These defective thinkers have much they can negotiate away and still maintain a good deal. Some should be fired just to ground their unrealistic expectations. Nothing like unemployment to make you appreciate a job.

Ed Pacelli

Linda,Every employer my husband has ever had paid employees for unused sick time at the end of every year.This encourages people not to just call in sick to use up the time.It has a positive effect on productivity.And these are rather small,privately owned businesses.They don't hire more people than they need,so when 1 or 2 people call out sick in 1 dept.it really makes a difference.

This sick day fight is really getting old. And it's a shame that our current Governor wants to paint all public Employees with the same wide brush stroke.

So maybe this will help; Most public employees are not eligible for short term state disability. Neither employer or work pays in to it. This is a direct cause of the accumulated sick time practice. I encourage everyone I speak with to save their time, you never know when an accident will prevent you from going to work.

As for the broad strokes of the Governor, I have worked in three school districts in the last 23 years. When I left my first one I left behind over 100 days. When I left the second district I left behind close to 130 days. And in the district I am in now I will leave behind every day I accumulate because I will not work there for the 20 years you need too to be eligible for a payout. I have not used I sick day as of yet.

I would bet that this is closer to the facts for most everyday public employees who go to work each day simply to be able to put food on the table and pay the bills.

And yes I know you pay my salary. Of course I pay it too when I pay me taxes. But I also pay yours every time I go to the grocery store or buy gas or go to the bank. How about when I buy a car or make change to my 403B. I guess my point is WE ALL pay each others salaries one way or the other.

Ah Mac, Bad, Bad Leroy Brown is the Union Boss, making a six figure salary for doing nothing but 'Organizing' you and your cohorts, and if you know the song, he'll go down, "cut in a hundred places" by a jealous man (Christy) cause he was caught seducing you!

OK, have it your way. But why would Gov. Christie be jealous of the ‘do nothing but organizing’ 6-figure Union Boss who paved the way for the governor, his staff and associates, and his numerous appointments to receive mostly Rolls-Royce versions of the standard state worker’s benefits? After all, it’s not like anyone in the executive branch is leading by the example of their oratory and foregoing those generous perks of perks. And frankly, at my age, the thought of being seduced isn’t entirely unattractive to me (at least if memory serves me right.)

yeah, something like that now since the law changed, I still have 15 to go and I'm sure it will change again, let me stick my finger in the the air and see which way the wind is blowing today.

Christies not talking about "Federal" workers, he's talking about "State" workers

I don't find it strange that you agree with Christie on this what with your twisted politics. Once in a while even an idiot things right.

Ed Pacelli

@Ed Pacelli, LOL! What a shame, you could not even correctly write that sentence: "even an idiot things right". LOL! Anyway, so you are a self-admitted dunce. You are the expert. Do not feel ashamed because we all know you once got something right. We all are so proud of you. Hugs.

Where are you working? I have worked at many places and have always received 10 sick days. At one job I even received 12 days and if I didn't use them I was paid for them at the end of the year. They would rather I come in to work and pay me later then call out and someone else have to do the work. P.S I am an accountant so Non Union

Yes, it is you are right, but on the other hand I once worked under an administrator who was en absentia for six or seven months the last year before retiring under use it or lose it. He had aquired the time over a lifetime job. Very few people today can acrue time like that IMO, because so many of these jobs with miserable working conditions can make people sick. Back in the day, jobs weren't terrible like that.

WHY would you be credited "service" for days you never "served"? Isn't the four weeks or more you have for vacation enough? The sick day is ment to ensure you're able to be paid for days you can't work due to illness. My company offers what may be called "unlimited" sick days. If your ill a day or a so you're all good, take 4 or more days and you're not going to be paid unless you have good reason AND a doctor note. Abuse the days and you're looking for another job.

Tired you don't start with 4 weeks of vacation it takes like 20 years of service to get that. They start with 10 days like the rest of us. So out of 52 weeks in the year 10 days awesome.

The funny thing about rules is they can be changed.

Sal you've got it right. Christie is not looking at the whole picture. And why are these public workers so evil now, when this was the deal when they were hired??

Five or six days a year is fair- that's what small business owners offer, to be used the same year. Businesses would not stay in business if sick pay was allowed to be accumulated and paid out at a point in the future. Government should be thinking like a business too, in order to stay in business!

The better solution is you pay sick days at the same rate they were accrued, The problem we have now is 30 years ago that sick day was worth maybe $50.00 a day, now that same day is worth $700.00 a day, no budget can account for those kinds of payouts.

how about if you're not sick, you get nothing, you know like everyone else. It's supposed to be insurance not a benefit.

Karen:
Examine the case in Chicago, where the Dumocrat Mayor is up in arms, and rightfully so. Striking Teachers, many who are walking the strike line are calling in sick and walking at locations where they will not be recognized, a Union arrangement, are producing a 40 percent dropout rate and a 20 percent skills at grade level result. They earn 77,000 dollars a year, plus longevity bonuses while the average person who struggles to pay their salaries makes 42,500 dollars a year and the city is 9.9 billion in debt with an income of just 2.3 billion. Is that fair? That’s what Emmanuel and the Fat Publican, Christy are hot about.

@Joseph. What is a dumocrat? A dumb republican bureaucrat like Romney and Ryan?

Amen Dewey!

Dewey have you spent 1 day in a classroom teaching our youth? Walk a mile in their shoes and you will be singing a different tune. I taught for 6 years and changed careers. How would you like bringing home papers every night to correct on your own unpaid time? How would you like being expected to come back on your own unpaid time for night events at school, or stay after paid school time to help kids who need extra attention to learn? How would you like to try to motivate children who (some of which) have no interest in being in school at all? How would you like to be unappreciated by everyone....administrators, parents, kids? Teachers get NONE of the appreciation they deserve. They deserve perks the rest of us do not get, simply because they are doing a job that most of the rest of us cannot or would not do. Tony Danza just came out with a book after spending a year teaching in a Philadelphia school. The name of the book is something like "I Would Like To Apologize To Every Teacher I Ever Had." I think Christie should spend one day teaching in an inner city high school and let's see what he says afterwards. If he survives.

LK2011, Christie's party does address taxes. The reduce them for the filthy rich. That's why ours are going up up up. Robin Hood in Reverse is their policy.

Actually Karen, it’s the local costs, like Salary, Health Care (Because of the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act, aka Obamacare, increasing the an employee’s Health Care Bill by about 770.00 dollars) and Pension which are exempted from the cap, and the NJ SC ABBOT Schools State Aid that are driving up your taxes. The State’s Operating Budget is only up .07 percent, and the only direct tax increases you pay to the state are Income, Sales Taxes and Fuel Taxes. Which were passed by the Dumocrat Assembly and Senate over Christy’s veto.
80 percent of Christy’s tax cuts, blocked by the Dumocrat Senate, will go to people with incomes between 29,900 and 249,999 dollars.

It's people like you who give all public employees a bad name. You call those who do not have government jobs "losers and drop outs"? I know many public workers who could never hold a job in the private sector. It's the civil service protection and union that keeps them from being let go.
Pay someone a decent salary if they have the necessary college degree but that has nothing to do with all the other benefits and sick time payouts.
I support CC's reforms of public employment. BTW, I happen to have over 32 years of public employment. You do not speak for all of us. You speak for the greedy.

Sal
welcome to the real world in the private sector. Sick days should never carryover
in fact, most of the business world won't allow carry-over of sick or vacation days becasue it causes a huge liability ( you don't know about that since government puts the liability on the taxpayers). So even though it would require using a substitute during the school year, they cannot continue to payout this year's sick/vacation time at a current market value rate at a future rate 10,15,20 years later. In essence taxapayers are paying today's time out at tomorrow's rate.

Sal - Your comments about Christie are ignorant. Grow up and write something of substance.

Sal,I not much of a fan of the Gov.But,the fact that he is obese is really none of your business,or mine,or anyone else's.There are some very health fat people.The taxpapers would have to pay SS benefits to his kids if he lost weight,took upf running,and was hit by a bus. while out for a run.

@Marylou. Wow. I cannot believe you actually said, "There are some very health [sic] fat people." There is no such thing as healthy obese people. Obesity in itself is an illness.
The fact that he is obese is really our business. if he should die or be incapacitated since that would affect our state government and we would all be affected one way or another.

Ric,There are many fat people who do no have the conditions often associated with obesity.They live as or longer than some slender people.Being thin is not a measure of health.Some thin people smoke to keep their weight down.Some have high cholesterol.high blood pressure and may of the conditions often associated with being overweight.Some of them suffer from congenital heart conditions.
Gov.Corzine was fit and trim.He almost died because he chose not to where a seat belt.Anyone who participates in a sport of exercises runs the risk of injury.
So,when Christie is out of office,should the next Gov.be required not only to be slender,but no participate in any activity that could cause serious injury or death?No skiing,cycling,surfing,etc.?No travel by air?

@Marylou. The fact that they are obese means they will get the illnesses associated with obesity. But honestly, I am not going to debate your made up facts and irrelevant points. If you want to live in a fantasy world where many fat people are healthy, enjoy it. I wish it were true. I would love to eat a chocolate cake right now but I won’t.
The fact is: In the real world obesity, if not rectified, will lead to a shorter life span and there is no denying that.

Ric, I won;t depute what you say.Generally,you are correct,of course.What I said is that not every fat person suffers from the conditions associated with obesity.The Gov.may be 1 of them.There are many thin people with high blood pressure,and that's a fact.I know a 30 yr.old man who was 1st diagnosed with high cholesterol before he was a teenager.He is 5'6" and weighs 120-125 lbs.

your compasion is unparalleled

sal many people are just fat because of their metabolism just as many are naturally skinny and others are naturally stupid . Attack the man on his politics or his policies or his lack of meaningful changes to property taxes in NJ , but stop being an idiot and attacking him on his weight. It has NOTHING to do with anything of importance to anyone except to him and to his family and they are the only ones who that subject pertains to and they seem to be just fine with his weight

Ric the people of NJ elected him as you see him. He was and is overweight. He like many others tried to lose weight but again for many people it is who they are and no diet can or will take off the excess pounds . No one wants to be fat, no one wants to be born different, no one wants to be stupid but yet thay are.

While your and Sals comments seem to include a bit of concern, they are still unwarranted persoal attacks on what you both percieve as a problem but in reality is none of your business.

The people did not elect him with the requirement he lose weight. The elected him to do a job that he does much better than any past governor HOWEVER is still NOT good enough for me. We need PROPERTY TAX REFORM NOW!

I think a lot of people are jealous of the benefits of state employees and it blinds them. How would they feel if their employer promised something and just took it away without any compromise? They probably would look for another job if they could.
I agree come up with a comprise like adding to the years serviced, like someone else suggested or leave current employees alone and change the rule for people hired going forward.

I worked in the public sector for over 32 years and have been saying the same thing for a long time.
Occupant, a couple comments below, is also right. I always said we should get ride of the dead wood [about 25%] and spread their pay around to the rest of us.

I agree with most of your comment except the that holidays contribute to unaffordability. Most goverment jobs are closed so they don't get overtime they just have a day off. Other countries have MANY more holidays than here in America and they are just as productive. I think that we are obsessed and feel someone has to be in work 365 days a year to be considered dedicated.
It takes a long time for some of theese employees to earn vacation days. I know I get them faster than some state employees. Mainly because they have to be there for 10-20 years before they get all that time. How many of us stay at one company that long.
I agree with you that the model is old and needs to change. I think sometimes people and Unions feel if they give a little now then who's to say more and more won't be taken away later.

You dont have to belong to a union... but the union is allowed to deduct up to 85% of the union dues from you because they feel that they bargain for you at contract time.

You can't just get rid of a Pension plan for workers already working. They may not have contributed to a 403B and are relying on that for retirement. You may not care now until your taxes are paying for them to get other goverment aid because they will be in poverty. The best thing to do is change the policy for new people coming in and have a 401K plan. And Goverment will have to have a match just like the private sector. Eventually all pensions could go away it will take time.

I am not going to name the places where my husband has worked in the past or where he works now.I prefer to hide behind my keyboard,so that some of the wacky people who post comments on her don't show up at my doorand exercie their right to bear arms.I will tell you this.There is someone out sick in his dept.now.Someone else,with more experience,has to do his job,which means leaving the workplace,and the rest have to do his job and well as their own.They don't have more employees than they need,so,yes productivity suffers when someone is out.So,afrgue with the owner of the businesses where he now works or worked in the past,not with me.They made the observation and the rules.

@Dewey,Obamacare has not completely gone into effect yet. It goes into effect in 2014, this is when everyone must carry health insurance, just like you carry auto insurance, once everyone is contributing the cost is then truly shared by everyone, be it by them paying for the insurance or the tax penalty. Don't you realize your rates are so high now is because you are paying for the people who do not have insurance and go to a hospital have treatment and just walk away from their bill. This is why an aspirin in a hospital is $5.00, The hospital compensates their losses by increasing the costs for everything.

It's really a shame that local municipalities allowed themselves to get in this position. Instead of standing their ground and doing what's right for the whole, they caved into union demands, and now we are stuck with millions in unfunded liabilities.

You are right. My cousin is a teacher and she uses all her time every year because she ends up getting sick constantly. It's mainly Municpal workers. I know that some Municipalities are cutting back on that with the administrative work. I am sure not for the police or firemen though.

Did you pay attention Dewey. EA are Superintendents, Principals, Asst. Principals and the like. Add up up all those people at maybe 200 days apeice and see how much is left for all the teachers. You shouldn't be such a hater of teachers

Additionally, the Politicians gave out all these benefits pandering for the large public worker voting block.

Of course they did. And why not? The large public worker voting block also represented and protected these same politicians (all of them) for possessing the same workman's benefits that the legitimate union members held, only in spades. And it worked. Not only are our politicians not held accountable for their gross abuse of government benefits, they are applauded for their 'class warfare' rhetoric blaming the blue collar employees for the politicians' ongoing deceptions.

I agree with you Mac, when are we going to hold our elected officials accountable, there is power in numbers. Why do the politicians continue to cut from everyone else and never themselves? Self-serving, and they all must go.

sometimes detours are good!

Private industry is slightly different. Wages and benefits are controlled somewhat from a business perspective. If a company cannot afford pay and benefits, they give out smaller pay raises, or none at all, and/or seek other worker concessions. A company can only pay out what it takes in, unlike local munucipalities who simply continue to raise taxes.

yeah it would be great if it were that simple. We've privatized "Nasa among many other things and if they, corporations and greedy people, have their way they'd privatize it all. We've lost our flavor and we are now being trodden under the foot of men. We deserve what's coming. total economic and social collapse. I love those denouncing socialism as bad. May I remind them if not for society, based on socialism in many forms, they'd be cutting their own lawns. Planting their own crops etc... etc... If we don't look out for the whole of society, it all fails. Always has always will. Inflation keeps raising taxes too. I'd rather pay taxes to many then a chosen few because it helps more people. The idea that we pay up on a pyramid scheme with no say in how much those above us make or are worth, no salary cap what so ever, is a failed idea. Empires always collapse under the weight of it's own corruption and greed. Exodus this pyramid scheme if our vanity will let us or build a really good bunker with plenty of unfracked water reserves. I really can't believe educated people can't see history just keep on repeating. wow, I should have gone to college so I could forget history too.

I never heard that one? Sounds a bit far fetched to me. them voting to stop their own pensions? Amazing if true and that would explain all the bribery in NJ in recent years but not the only reason. I have Christie on speed dial but it goes straight to voicemail. lol

dewey, do you expect me to waste my time googling too? What'd you come up with? lol. short form who is or isn't?

it would do you no good. He only takes pre screened questions and if one gets through it's the same old "this is the first time I've heard of this or I've got my people looking into and I'll have some one call you" lol. they are jokes. i stood with my arm raised for 45 minutes as he jumped from one planted person to the other. He got caught by a local lakewood minister asking for change for the poor and he went into " we gotta drop taxes to make ourselves more competitive." lol it was sickeningly funny to watch the stage show our "leaders" put on. good luck

thanks dewey. you're alright. Not sure of details but it seems better. Hey dewey, how come private companies like airlines and many other can simply take away pension deals that are in legal contracts but we can't amend run away pension and sick payouts? Private has more power then public? Guess so.

First off, if private companies can breach contractual agreements because of mismanagement, ie. rich ceo's faults, why can we all just break them? Bankruptcy I'm sure is just as good for them as it is for us? Also, with the ages rising, what would we do with all the old now non pensioners? SSI? Soilentgreen? If 1 percent has 40 percent of money and sits on it, is that o.k. for us all? I guess we better start paying attention to who and where we throw our money away onto. Too many people I suppose. Shall we open the vials now or wait till Christian spring hits home? lol. Christian america is funny. lol. Judeao christian values is even funnier. Don't you think? Rome wasn't burnt in a day you know.

hey dewey, in the 70s 50k was middle class. Some how it still is? Do that math. It's a runaway train wreck. And I'm thinking positively. lol. All i want is to have my piece of the pie. lallalalla more then feeling.

I do taxes for a living and I have done many state employees return and have only seen 1 W2 in 70 that had a compensation of 100K. Like George said below in the 70s 50k was middle class. How can it still be considered that now. You know a family has to make a least a 100,000 in NJ to own a home and make it. Estentially Middle class.

What was wrong with Romney;s comments according to you?

What ?? how about your hero Obama's disastrous and irresponsible comments while campaigning in sin city ? Obama compared campaign volunteers to murdered embassy staff.....You going to blame that on Bush or Romney ? US State Department had credible information 48 hours before mobs charged the consulate in Benghazi, and the embassy in Cairo, that American missions may be targeted....wow Bush or Romney again huh, i could go on and on with FACTS but whats the point......go choke on the kool-aid dolt !

The Cairo embassy statement that Romney commented on was put out before they stormed the embassy in Libya, but apparently Romney's people were tuned into Flop News and thought what Bret Baier was reporting...that story about the Cairo statement was issued after the Libya embassy attack. . .Ah well...back to the drawing board Mitt...maybe you'll get it right the next time?

And whats about Obama's disastrous and irresponsible actions towards Israel ? Obama has no time to meet with Netanyahu but he has time to go on Letterman.

Obama's is nothing more than Carter on steroids

Obama has no time for Netanyahu, no time to attend a briefing on the situation in Libya, but he has plenty of time to go on the David Letterman show. I guess the DemocRATS don't see a problem here.....Laughable.

Oh yeah you mean when companies were making money off of children working. Most of the unions and other groups formed around and before that time worked to stop unfair treatment of employees and create a minimum working age, stoping child labor. Do we really want to go back to thoose times. I sure don't.

@MillieCn. And are you receiving or will receive a pension or other benefits from either your union or school district based on your employment as a teacher?
I recently met a retried NJ teacher and all she could do was complain that the high taxes in this state were forcing her to move to another state. Yet the poor old dear could not apprehend that the taxes are high in this state because teachers and other government employees are so generously overpaid. So it was really hypocritical of her complaining about paying her fair of the taxes while she was reaping such a bounty from the taxpayers.

So where is your place in the tax food chain?

"I was a republican"

Yeah ok lol

@Chris. I have never been a bible thumper and just the sight of a religious zealot makes me vomit. The new ring wing republican party is run to please the Bible Nazis. Cripes, even an idiot knows evolution is a proven theory yet the republicans dispute evolution. Women have been aborting since before Christ walked the earth. The bible thumpers cannot understand that.

The first order of this country should be business and not imposing religious doctrine. When the republicans start courting the moderates and tossing the bible thumpers I will return. But feel free to associate yourself with the thumpers. I just rather not.

I am republican and will not be voting for Romney. Their pandering to the religious right has finally done me in. I am a person of science and sound economic principles. The Republican party is a disappearing party. We need to come back together as a nation and swallow the fact that the face of America has changed!

I kind of like it. Makes sense! I worked at a company that paid us out for our sick days and for every quarter we didn't use a sick day we earned a FREE personal day. And if you didn't use any sick days all year then you received a BONUS day at the end of the year. Allowing us to be paid for not only 12 of our unused sick days but for an extra week (5 days) on top of that. They did it because we only had enough employees to do the job and if someone called out it could create potential overtime. Plus they had wharehouses so that would mean calling someone in or having the current people work overtime. I worked in the office and ALL of my friends would come in sick to get the bonus check at the end of the year. Me I used all my sick days. Keep your money I would rather be off.
It did create an incentive for people to come in but then people would get me sick because they came in sick. I think this is why alot of companies have changed to PTO (paid time off). They give you all the days off you would have received when labeled as Sick, Personal, Vacation but removed the label. That way you eliminate this crap about someone taking a sick day just to use it blah blah. And say here you go you get 25 days off do with it what you will. Some companies limit carryover others say use it or loose it.
For state employees they don't pay into disability so the carried over sick days are supposed to act as that. Although it should be limited.

ONLY Romney? How come you aren't talking about the (late)Kennedys; Pelosis, Edwards; etc.

Are you saying the millionaire Democrats in the House and Senate pay more income taxes than Republicans?

Tonto,
Romney takes legal advantage of the current tax laws, just like every other smart tax payer would, but he's the bad guy on the block. Did you know that he also contributes 15% of his income to charity? Biden is a millionaire who also takes full advantage of the tax laws, but he contributed only $2300. to charities. Who's the bad guy? Want to talk about Pelosi?
Congress is full of millionaires who take full advantage of our tax laws. But, Romney's the bad guy. On the other hand, it is Romney who wants to close the tax loopholes which would generate revenues far greater than a tax increase would.

Obama announced that he wants to raise the rates on small businesses like mine. That's when I found out that I must be a millionaire. He after all, helped us build it, and now he argues that we should pay more to help solve our fiscal problems. Guess what, taxing the wealthy more wouldn't cover 1% of our debt.
What a way to win an election, divide the country with class warfare, and never talk about your own failures. Just nail the greedy well-to-do folks who already pay 80% of
all fed taxes while half the workforce pays none, and half of them actually get paid by govt. I'll say one thing for legal and illegal immigrants, They're not lazy, they work.

By the way, if our tax rates do go up our company will have no choise but to hand out pink slips.

You don't think that the Dems will allow a shift from prop tax to income tax or even a usury tax even better than all would pay for education, not happening because then the slackers would also be paying!

Thanks Tonto. That is an interesting idea worth considering or possibly even agreeing on. Did you come up with that all on your own? seriously? lol. Lets have a vote on it here tonto or on patch facebook? Democracy in action? Can't trust election results from fraud, bribery, or trickery? Finger print verify on computer and referendum our government away? hmmmmmm

@Mrgrumpass. What is a dems? Did you forget how to spell them? Or is it your nickname for Romney and Ryan as in dems my guys?

I

Hi Ric as I see you are still a bit SLOW, sorry maybe you need to take your meds!

@Mrgrumpass. Buddy, you need a new pair of glasses. You sure cannot see very well. Either that or you should layoff those shots and beers until you sober up.

By the way, have a great day!

REALLY Tonto? New Jersey has always used property tax to fund education. The lottery was supposed to be used to suppliment school funding.
And wouldn't the upper class pay more in property tax?

Mrgrumpass, What is a usury tax?
I'm sure the folks here would like to know.

Samantha
what about BHO's collage records, he refuses to release them, and their would not have been a question as to where BHO was born if he had released his cert sooner as requested!

so true Samantha, we are taxed to death in the USA and especially in states like NJ

Have you ever looked at your phone bill for taxes you get nailed with?

My phone bills were always over $100 a month and I barely used the phone. Much was to pay for things I never used like for a 'Long Distance Carrier' so after years of fighting with Verizon I was allowed to drop it. That became a 10 year battle of me being 'slammed' by long distance carriers and having them on my bill. That ended with me getting a $750 refund from verizon and switching to 'basic local calling' only.

That worked fine for me. I used calling cards rarely when necessary, or my cel to make out of area calls, but my bill was always more than doubled by taxes and fees. a $13 monthly bill totaled $30 after taxes! That's INSANE to pay more in taxes than for the service I was buying!

On top of that, service here always sucked. Poor reception, interference and crossed lines were annoying and constant problems

I switched to 'magic jack' & paid only 7% sales tax 1 time on the roughly $80 purchase of the equipment. After the 1st year I'm be paying under $20 a year for phone service to anywhere in north America

While Magic Jack has it's own problems and is not perfect, they are better than Verizon and any cel phones I have had over the years

While annoying, these small taxes we pay are not the ones we need addressed. the problem in NJ is PROPERTY TAXES but Every penny we save is important

Clinton was dragged down that road kicking and screwing by the republican controlled Congress and Senate! BC didn’t get that idea playing spin the cigar with the interns He was pointed in that direction by the conservative house stop fabricating history!

@Barney. Stupid is thinking paying down the debt is worse than Dubya spending money, we never had, like a drunken sailor. There is no logic in that, so you run like it was a house on fire.

Dubya, Cheney, and their right wing "Christian" agenda have put us in so much debt by waging two wars, and which we lost both of them - now, that is real stupid. Now, even god is pissed at them. How many Iraqis are now dead - up to a million? Oh yes, our invasion really helped them – not.
Barney I am not going to waste my time discussing your “manufactured facts”. If you do want to return to reality, please do let me know. Keep it real, not Faux News.

@Barney. Those who do not study history are doomed to repeat the same mistakes. LOOK AT THE HISTORY OF THE LAST RIGHT WING REPUBLICAN PRESIDENT. Barney, I am finished with you. You run from the truth like it were a disease.

@MRgrumpass. It is time to take your meds. It is only 5 p.m. and you are already posting insults. Get a grip bud. Does writing insults make you feel manly or womanly - depending on what you are.

It's difficult for you entitlement folks to hear the truth!

Spot on!

when people spend time focused on one person with very limited power as if everything bad or that happens is his fault alone, seems very childish and naive, even to me. Do you think some one trying to help stupid people fight for their "fair" share of the pie wouldn't have people working directly against that? So many in business and congress concentrated all there efforts in stopping any progress this president could make regardless if the ideas came from gop or not. The fault of this country going down hill and the wrong way for decades lies with each and every one of us, not just one president or man.

Chris, I know it is important that the GOP pins the National debt issue on Obama but the debate simply misstates the facts. Here are the facts, in case you are actually interested:

"The CBO has summarized the cause of change between its January 2001 estimate of a $5.6 trillion cumulative surplus between 2002 and 2011 and the actual $6.1 trillion cumulative deficit that occurred, an unfavorable "turnaround" or debt increase of $11.7 trillion. Tax cuts and slower-than-expected growth reduced revenues by $6.1 trillion and spending was $5.6 trillion higher. Of this total, the CBO attributes 72% to legislated tax cuts and spending increases and 27% to economic and technical factors. Of the latter, 56% occurred from 2009 to 2011.

The difference between the projected and actual debt in 2011 can be largely attributed to:

$3.5 trillion – Economic changes (including lower than expected tax revenues and higher safety net spending due to recession)
$1.6 trillion – Bush Tax Cuts (EGTRRA and JGTRRA), primarily tax cuts but also some smaller spending increases
$1.5 trillion – Increased defense baseline budget and non-defense discretionary spending under both the Bush and Obama administrations
$1.4 trillion – Wars in Afghanistan and Iraq
$1.4 trillion – Incremental interest due to higher debt balances
$0.9 trillion – Stimulus and tax cuts since 2008 (Economic Stimulus Act of 2008, ARRA and Tax Act of 2010)."

You might also be interested in this:

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2011/07/28/us/charting-the-american-debt-crisis.html

Spin away Tonto lol

http://www.conservativerefocus.com/spinthedemocrat.png

MORE BS from Tonto who's trying hard to hold onto his welfare check and food stamps. You sound too pathetic! He must be a DemocRAT

Or the "If I don't have it you shouldn't either". Both trains of thought are going to ruin this country, if they haven't already

"all the geniuses we've sent to wall street"?
Who sent anyone to Wall St?

By showing them how "easy" it is making hundreds if not millions as a order taker or salesmen, didn't "we" basically send them to wall street? We didn't show them how to make millions actually keeping the crooked game going, only to get as much for themselves regardless if it blows the world's economy up as in derivatives or housing scandals.. robbing or mismanaging pension 401ks etc.etc..? We told them where the big and "easy money" was and so they went.

George, It appears you have no idea of what "Wall Street" is or does.

Really George? What did I say it does?
BTW, did you mean 'USURY"?

frank - Hmmm. And where was President Obama the other night? I think Jay Z and Beyonce's bash and the Letterman Show were graced with his presence. No time to meet with Netanyahu, but all the time in the world to toot his own horn. Let's face it. It is campaign season. Everyone is out there pressing the flesh (no, that is not a Bill Clinton reference BTW). Do you really want to talk about NJ's economy and pretend as if our President is not responsible for any of the collapse occurring nationally? Don't think that you really want to go there.

@Donna. What would be accomplished by our president meeting with Netanyahu? Would that not show we endorse Israel’s pending attack on Iran? Won’t that risk setting up the USA for another terrorist attack? And possibly getting our armed forces killed in another useless Middle Eastern war? If you do not care, please sign up all your eligible relatives, including yourself, in the armed forces. I am opposed to getting in any more wars unless we have to fight to protect our country. But you are pro-life” or is that just in the womb?
We need to run from Israel’s war on Iran.
Israel with all of its 1,000 damn nukes (paid for by US taxpayers) will be attacking Iran to stop her from building one nuke. Funny how Israel has 1000 nukes to kill her neighbors but won’t allow its neighbors to defend themselves from Israel with just one nuke. Honestly, neither Iran nor Israel should have even one nuke.
Let’s not forget Israel has already twice waged war on her neighbors during peace time (1956 & 1967). Sort of like Japan and Pearl Harbor, eh?
In 1967 Israel also attacked our ship USS Liberty and killed and wounded many sailors. If Israel is truly our friend, Israel and its Jewish-American lobby would stop putting pressure to block an investigation by America into the attack of the USS Liberty.
I’ll never forget that attack. But then my father was in our Navy at the time. Link is to YouTube video interview with our survivors. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPBaYumP9hM

Ric - You certainly are going from Point A to a nuclear holicaust in one paragraph. When an ally requests a "meeting" with our country's leader, wouldn't diplomacy dictate that our President attend? I think that by snubbing (or use the word of your choosing) the request of our lone ally in the region, we are sending a message of disunity to those who would do our nation (and Israel) harm. There is an uncomfortable tone in your writing indicating an animosity toward Israel. I may not be thoroughly versed in international affairs, but when our ambassador is brutally murdered along with 3 other Americans by radical Muslims, I'd hazard to guess that the region requires a tad bit of attention. Another appearance on Letterman is probably going to do little in the way of improving the deteriorating situation in the Mideast. I could be wrong. I am a firm believer in peace through strength and make no apologies for my desire to be the home of the strongest military in the world.. BTW...my husband is a veteran as are my father-in-law and two uncles. My nephew is currently serving his second tour of duty. Additionally, I am pro-life and make no apologies for the distinction between defense of liberty and the defense of innocence. Should I be flattered that you are following me so closely on the Patch?

@Donna. No, our president works for the Americans and not the Israelis. Diplomacy does not and has never granted 24 hour a day revolving door access to the oval office to anyone including a nation that devours 1/3 of our aid. In plain words it is our bucks so they dance to our tune. The mere fact Israel demands “her right” to see our president is laughable. You need to read a history book or two. I am a history buff so I have plenty of titles to recommend to you.
You also need to learn the difference between “defense of liberty” and attacking. You have the two terms confused.
I am going to ignore everything else you said because you are ignoring how ISRAEL SLAUGHTERED MANY AMERICANS ON THE AMERICAN SHIP USS LIBERTY. Why are you afraid to learn the truth?
Israel is not our ally, never has been. We even allied with Russia and went to war against Israel in 1957. The only true ally America has is herself.

Thanks Donna and Ric. You certainly aired these issues out. Who's right? I guess we'll never know.

Ric - We clearly disagree on many issues and the tangents we've gotten into are further evidence of that. Respectfully, I do not think that a $70,000 ad in Pakistan featuring our President and Secretary of State making nice over the brutal slaughter of an American ambassador and his associates is going to be a very successful foreign policy. Inasmuch as Israel is the only sustainable democracy in the Mideast, I think that our foreign policy ought to be minimally to have a chat with them. Call me silly but we need a strategy to deal with the mess that is upon us today and I'm not sensing any confidence that our current administration knows what to do in this arena or in that of our economy. Whether Mitt Romney is the panacea for our country at this time is to be determined. The one thing I am certain of, however, is that Mr. Obama is in over his head and has made these issues worse in 4 years. I deal with what is in front of me. President Obama applied for the job and assured voters he would accomplish certain goals. He did not succeed by any measure. I genuinely do not think that 4 more years of the same policies or lack thereof is something that our nation can absorb. Enjoy your weekend.

@Donna. Can you keep it honest? First off, the ad to which you referred to was a condemnation of that awful film and not making nice. It was to calm the anti-American uproar in Pakistan. Have you seen the clip on YouTube? It was incendiary. Cripes, if it was made about Christianity it would make the controversy about The Last Temptation of Christ seem like child’s play.

Dubya & Rice would have done the same thing because they also did their best to calm tensions abroad whenever needed. Frankly, Donna, no matter what Obama did in this situation you would blast him. But tell me, Donna, what do you think our president should have done differently?

Ric - Despite your snarky commentary, I'd be glad to respond. As far as religious offensive media, I find it funny that Freedom of Speech holds sacred for anyone except those so inclined to offend the fringe Muslim population. The President himself indicated that he would like to be able to remove the video (amateur high school quality at best) from YouTube. It's that pesky Constitution, however, that prohibits him from so doing. All the while, Andre Sorrano's Piss Christ will be appearing again in NYC with zero concern over its offensive nature to Christians. Talk about double standards. I find religious humor offensive and generally off limits in my own personal life. If, however, appeasement is your solution in dealing with terrorists, then violence will be brought to our shores again. What you do not seem to understand is that these radical fundamentalists hate us, and our weakness is what feeds their hunger for violence against the west. Now you can go into a multi-paragraph explanation about how it is Bush's fault or we occupy their land so they have every right to sodomize an ambassador every now and then, but personally I think that you meet violence with strength and a firm response - military if appropriate. Our dilemma, however, is that as a result of our downward spiraling economy, we are not the biggest kid on the block anymore. And the world is suffering as a result.

Donna. When it comes to snarky comments, neither of us can cry foul on the other.
To us the film is stupid. But the Muslim fundamentalists just like fundamentalist in any religion, are using this as an opportunity to stir up the masses. Like the lamebrain attempts of Westboro church at the funerals of our fallen. I am not saying I think the Muslim reaction is fair because it isn’t. What I am saying is the president is trying to diffuse the tension in Pakistan before more Americans get killed over that stupid video – in the same manner that Dubya & Rice would have done.
I am going to ask you again, what would you recommend our president to do in Pakistan? What workable options do you see? Is it just putting America into another war?
As I mentioned to you earlier, I am a history buff. I studied the birth and spread of Islam. Mohammed had no problem in murdering his opponents and either marrying or selling their wives. He had nothing in common with the message of Jesus Christ.
I also favor us getting out of saving the world. We should be like China, India and Russia and make money not war. If god wants to save the world, he has enough angels already up there with him to do his bidding.

Sue - One more thing. How do you claim "gridlock" when the president had a majority in both houses for the first 2 years of his presidency? We are not in this economic mess because his policies were "not" passed. We are in it because they "did" get enacted. A critical eye looks both ways.

It's called the filibuster. The favorite tool of Republican Senators. It was on display this week when the republicans spit in the face of our troops and veterans. So please stop with the "two year majority" it is one of the most often told lies of the misinformed or the deceitful

wheres murrow? - He actually had a fillibuster-proof majority in the Senate for nearly 3 months. It was the so-called Blue Dog and moderate Democrat Senators such as Evan Bayh, Ben Nelson and Blanche Lincoln who were the thorns in his side. Just one question though, what legislation was it that was not passed which was was a keystone to helping define his presidency? His most recent budget was voted down in the Senate 99-0 by a pure bi-partisan decision.

Donna, maybe every man has his price?

..yeah that all changed for a while when Al Franklin was finally given his Senate seat... but it didn't last long before the Republicans regained control of the filibuster.

Spooner - That would be "Franken." I also think, if I'm not mistaken, the death of Ted Kennedy and subsequent election of Scott Brown had something to do with it. But I must ask....what landmark legislation of the president's did not get passed? Executive Orders have certainly not slowed down his agenda.

Actually, it is the Democrats who have used the filibuster most often and most famously.
Notably, Huey Long, Wayne Morse, Strom Thurmond, Mike Mansfield and Robert Byrd.
Thurmond set a record for the longest filibuster at 24 hours and 18 minutes. That record was previously held by Morse.

Thurmond and Byrd both filibustered to try to block civil rights.
In fact, Democratic senators attempted, unsuccessfully, to block the passage of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 by making a filibuster that lasted for 75 hours.
http://ezinearticles.com/?Famous-Filibusters-in-Political-History&id=31091

Al Franken was sworn in July of 2009 to the US Senate. Kennedy died a month later. Brown sworn in Feb. 2010. So you had about 8 months of Democratic control of the filibuster. . .not the two years that the right propaganda machine likes to tell us?

Mr/Mrs/Ms Spooner,
The distribution of the Senate during the 111th Congress was
Majority Party: Democrat (57 seats)
Minority Party: Republican (41 seats)
Other Parties: 1 Independent; 1 Independent Democrat

And by the way, neither the majority or the minority "control the filibuster", whatever that is supposed to mean.

Ah, I don't necessarily have to agree with one’s politics to appreciate a man who understands Gov. Christie is riding high in the saddle of a Trojan horse.

Tonto - Social Security is a welfare entitlement program. What's more it is an entitlement program in danger of collapse. To not address the problem with bold solutions is foolhardy. I'm about 15 years away from being eligible for what, if left unaddressed, is bound to be a bankrupt program for which I have been legally bound to contribute for the past 32 years. That doesn't seem terribly equitable and for those currently in the program, there is no worry under the Ryan plan.

I think you got things a little confused. Social Security funds the Federal Govt. . .been doing that since LBJ borrowed SSI money to fund the Vietnam War? Now yous want to spin it as an entitlement?

Spooner - "Here is an interesting summary of the Roosevelt Administration's brief in the Helvering vs. Davis Supreme Court case which established the constitutionality of Social Security. It would seem to suggest that the position of the Roosevelt Administration, in order to win that case, was that Social Security is not an entitlement, and that "it can be taken away at will." This is at odds with the popular conception Americans have of the program. This historical basis for Social Security, of course, could potentially have enormous implications" and the modern perception is readily accepted as being that of an "entitlement."

Social Security wasn't started as an entitlement program but it seems people today think it is.
It also was never planned to be a person's entire retirement program, but many people today think it is.

In fact, Social Security was never supposed to work at all. It was started in the 1930s when we were in the middle of a depression and the goverment needed money. So they came up with Social Security. At the time they told workers that if they paid in one half of one percent of every paycheck, when they reached age 65 the government would give them back some money every month. The problem was that the life expectancy in 1940 was 62 years. OOops!!
And most people understood that it wasn't all they would need to live on when they retired. If they didn't have a pension plan, they saved for retirement.
By the early 1960s when people had been paying into this for 20+ years the life expectancy had gone up to 69 years. So more people were living long enough to collect. Now, the large number of baby boomers is starting to retire and living a lot longer. There isn't going to enough money in the system to cover everyone.

Remember that one half of one percent? That was one cent on every ten dollars earned. In 2012 that rate is 4.2 percent for an employee and another 6.2 percent from the employer.

Donna- the drafters of the SS legislation in 1933 were well aware of the Supreme Court challenges, but using Justice Roberts argument in National Federation of Independent Business v. Sebelius, they used the same foundation to get around it. Actually back then, the idea was revealed to the Secretary of Labor, Francis Perkins by Supreme Court Justice Brandeis via his daughter and her husband, who were both economist at U of Wisconsin and involved with drafting legislation for Unemployment Insurance there. But that presented problems for them with other states, who would gain a competitive edge over Wisconsin. The solution was found in a 1927 Supreme Court case: Florida vs. Mellon, having to do with inheritance taxes. Florida had no inheritance tax, so people would file residence there and avoid the tax. Other states began to complain. The solution was a Federal Inheritance Tax. Florida sued the Federal Govt. and Florida lost. The Court ruled that Congress's power to levy taxes was virtually absolute. . .

GOOD NIGHT

Obstructionist?
The Senate version of 'Obamacare' was named for Ted Kennedy because he had been pushing for something like this for about 40 years. Even though for most of those 40 years both houses of Congress were controlled by Democrats he couldn't get enough support for it.
Remember during Clinton's first term Hillary, as the head of Task Force on National Health Care Reform, pushed for a health care bill in a Democrat controlled Congress.

Ohh look now Tonto suddenly cares about vets

When it fits his political agenda that it

Im a vet and I find it sickening that after 2 years of doing nothing the Democratic controled Senate suddenly decides to push through a bill with the false pretext of "we care about vets" when it's all about playing political games with vets with less that 60 days till election day.

The DNC is a total disgrace

Frank ,President Romney will see to that the Vets will be well taken care of .

As a Vet my vote is for President Romney

Do you think having the highest population density in the country have something to do with the unemployment rate? Or having more jobs to begin with than other states might have something to do with it?

Right! Create yet another bureaucracy with a bunch of high paid Obama Cronies to create more government jobs.

You seem to be very anti Romney because he has a few bucks more than most people. Did you have the same problem with John Kerry in 2004?
“They” would fast-track 20,000 vets into jobs? Are these jobs that already exist and they can’t find anyone else to apply for them?

Well Ben, Do these jobs have to be public sector jobs? Maybe if you and Will Smith and a lot of other people bought an American car rather than a Toyoda or Nissan there would be more jobs available.

Ric that shows how ignorant you are. For starters I own 3 American cars. Sadly, they are not that well made even though they cost as much or more than their competition. I guess that keeps me going back for repairs which creates jobs right.

Tell me this, are the American workers making other cars for others in SC and other places not worthy? What about all the sales and service employees of the foreign car companies? When Obama turned GM into Gov Motors, how many dealerships, lives and jobs did he ruin? Is Chrysler still considered an American car company?

Do you have an iPhone that was made in China? How come no one wants to bash Apple for where they make their products?

Can you answer Ben's question on what the funding source for these jobs would be?

Uhh, Janet, you referenced the wrong person. You are actually responding to Rick with a K and not Ric. I mean if you are going to accuse someone of being ignorant at least make sure your comment is directed properly.

PS: I stopped following this particular debate about a week ago so I have not a clue to what either you or Rick think, I mean nothing personal.

Janet, Auto building was only an example.
What I was saying was that if there are no private sector jobs such as auto factories, then any jobs 'created' must be government jobs which are funded by taxpayers. 'They' can only create so many of those jobs before they run out of tax dollars to pay the workers.